JD, Ryerson?

Ryerson University in Toronto is developing a proposal to create a new JD program “that focuses on innovation in legal education for the benefit of graduates, their communities, and the broader society.”  That quotation comes from Ryerson’s Letter of Intent, available here.  It makes fascinating reading.  Compared to the traditional law curriculum, it is a profound re-think of what training lawyers is all about, with emphasis on producing “graduates who possess the initiative to respond to unmet legal needs, who exhibit a commitment to social engagement and community leadership, who are able to envision new applications of their education.”  Obviously I like these ideas; in a smaller way, the same ones are reflected in L21C.  (On the other hand, I’ve seen the LOI described as “buzzword bingo” – I don’t really agree but I still think it’s funny.)

We’ve had an interesting debate on our internal course site (Mattermost) about this.  With the permission of those who contributed, I’ve moved it here so that it can be read more widely.

I hope others, in L21C and beyond, will add their thoughts.

Me: this is the letter of intent outlining Ryerson’s proposal to open a law school. I’d be very interested to know what you think of this. I expect that many of you will share the views of skeptics who have pointed out the shortage of articling positions in Ontario (and generally), and questioned whether Toronto needs another law school. Personally, I’m very persuaded by the argument that there is a need in society for a different kind of law school, one that uses innovative approaches to build skills and provide hands-on experience, focused on the needs of the users of legal services. I think it will be challenging to turn that aspiration into real results, but Ryerson has already shown real leadership in legal training, and they might just pull it off. Chris Bentley is one of our guest speakers, so you will have a chance to talk to him about it.

Lorna: The job market being what it is, they’d only be doing their students a disservice to start running a program and graduating people out into the employment void. If it is the case that they will provide the kind of training that’ll comes from articling, and where a good part of the curriculum is aimed toward alternative careers in law, then it could be quite promising.

Me: think they have thought very carefully about the argument that Ontario doesn’t need another law school and that they will be adding more people to a saturated job market. Those are serious concerns. In my opinion the proposal has serious, convincing answers to them. One of the answers – and I find this very compelling – is that there is clearly a huge need for more lawyers, if you look at it not from the point of view of law firm hiring stats but at social need. Ontario’s population has doubled in the last 30 years, but only one new law school has been added in that time. Most people who experience legal problems don’t get help from a lawyer because they can’t afford it. If something is too expensive for those who need it to access it, that suggests an undersupply, not an oversupply. Of course it does nothing to fix this problem if you create another law school like all the others that trains lawyers in a way that fails to bridge the gap. But I think Ryerson has genuinely considered how to do that and has come up with a well designed, well considered plan. A couple of other points mentioned in the report: there are high numbers of Canadian students training in law schools overseas (US, UK, Australia) who come back into the market here, and would train in this country if there were places for them, so to that extent opening a new school doesn’t increase the supply of law graduates. And, last point, as Omar Ha-Redeye says in this Slaw post, Ryerson aims to prepare law graduates who will create the jobs for graduates of other law schools.

Anita: I think it is a great idea but only if the program satisfies the articling requirement and if the tuition is not too high. I feel that one of the greatest barriers to new graduates who may want to practice differently from the traditional models is that there are very few articling positions with firms who don’t run with the traditional model and so if we do find an articling position, it will most likely be one with a traditional model. Articling with a firm steeped in the traditional mode of practice arguably instills that model in the articling student. Furthermore, a heavy debt load after graduation would prevent a recent graduate from taking riskier paths for fear of unpredictable financial returns. At least that is how I feel when looking for ways to practice law differently in my own career.

 

See also:

Omar Ha-Redeye’s post in Slaw

Discussion on Lawstudents.ca

Blog post on Legal Feeds, including comments from Chris Bentley

Article in the Ryersonian, which I just had to include because, um … that’s not Osgoode Hall Law School!

Artificial Intelligence and the Law

Who is “ROSS” and why is he going to take my job?

As you may have heard mentioned in class (maybe once or twice) the legal profession is changing due to a number of influences, one of which is the pervasive development within the information technology sector, particularly in the area of artificial intelligence (SURPRISE!).

Maybe you’ve heard of “Watson” or “ROSS”, maybe not. But let’s just clarify a few things regarding who these troublemakers are, what they are about, and why your job is definitely threatened by both of them—but arguably not for another 10 years at least (whew!)

Who? What?

Watson: Watson is a technology platform developed by IBM, named after the company’s founder Thomas J. Watson. Watson uses language processing, machine learning and cognitive computing to reveal insights and answer questions from inputted information. He has been successful at analyzing data and providing solutions based on supporting evidence in a variety of areas including the medical field and the law.

Fun Fact:

In 2011,Watson competed against two of Jeopardy’s greatest human champions in a match. Watson won earning $77,147 –Rutter brought in only $21,000 and Jennings $24,000.

ROSS:

Initially ROSS was a submission in an international tech competition where IBM challenged universities to come up with commercial uses for their Watson platform. ROSS is an artificially intelligent “lawyer” developed by U of T students as a legal research tool. ROSS allegedly eliminates the monotonous task of legal research so that lawyers can spend their time focusing on what is important—clients. Because legal research is patterned and repetitive, that is the best recipe for computer automation and hence, the development of ROSS. Intended to be a platform for lawyer use, you can ask it any form of legal question in natural language and ROSS has access to a vast legal databank and sifts through the information to find relevant and accurate legal answers.

Will … or rather when will Ross replace lawyers?

How quick and easy is it to employ ROSS? Besides ROSS platform itself, all you need is an Internet connection and, voila! According to rossintelligence.com he arguably eliminates time “wasted” on training sessions. “Let Ross help you accomplish more than you ever thought humanly possible.”

Now this is a claim I take issue with. Training sessions are important and ROSS is not about to eliminate the need to complete CLEs (they are inherently important in and of themselves, but that is a discussion for another blog). There is value in keeping your industry and case knowledge updated.  No matter how wonderful and useful ROSS may be there are some barriers to overcome…

a) It’s going to take time to learn how to work with ROSS

b) What happens when the Internet cuts out? What happens if there’s a glitch? (Technology is great and useful, when it works)

But most importantly…

c) What about the articling students?

That brings me to my next question: so when will he take your job?

Arguably he already has. ROSS has been bringing in a number of subscription fees and the system is already being used by several law firms including sole practitioners and big law names like Dentons, Latham & Watkins as well as BakerHostetler. The fact that ROSS doesn’t need breaks or sleep (like most articling students) and has the ability to research and work around the clock gives firms a competitive edge —catch: ROSS doesn’t burn out!

But “old law” as we know it places importance on legal research skills and that is primarily what most articling students spend their time doing. Hypothetically, let’s say as time passes, technology further advances, and ROSS becomes more affordable to the point where he is employed by almost every firm in Canada. How are articling students going to learn the ropes? Will there be a need for articling students at all?

None of these questions can be answered for certain but ROSS and other AI that promotes industry efficiency is certainly not going away. The articling process and the value of articling jobs (insofar as the scope remains to complete legal research) are going to diminish and it is very likely that if there are any articling jobs left that whole program is going to experience a radical shift from the way things were done in the “good old days”, involving copious amounts of memo writing and legal research. ROSS is learning how to do that too!

But let’s face the facts here. The legal profession is comparatively one of the most conservative professions there are and the partnership pyramid scheme (dare I say) is still in full force today – and no senior partner in a bigwig firm is going to give up their passive income from all the hours their junior associates are billing overnight. No, this isn’t going to happen the day after tomorrow either. But the market forces are creating tension, clients are becoming better informed, globalization is alive and well, and the call for change in the profession has been happening for some time. Though it will not happen overnight, change is already happening and law students need to prepare themselves for the changing profession appropriately. Flexibility and adaptability are paramount.  Within our career span, tools like ROSS and other AI platforms will be integrated into our everyday practice and will become the norm– that is for certain.

Insipiration for LawHacks

Georgetown Law’s Center for the Study of the Legal Profession gives students an opportunity to design and develop access to justice apps in a course called “Technology, Innovation and Legal Practice.”  Yesterday the ABA Journal ran an article on “Legal Rebel” Professor Tanina Rostain, co-director of the Center, who created and teaches the course.  Students show off their apps in the Iron Tech Law competition, where they can win prizes in Excellence in Design, Excellence in Presentation and all-round best app.

Here’s an excerpt from a law review article (1) co-authored by Professor Rostain (internal citations omitted):

“In 2012, a team of students in our class on “Technology, Innovation and Law Practice” built a web-based application (app) called ‘Same-Sex Marriage adviser.’  The app, which covered fifty states and the District of Columbia, used an automated interview to help users determine whether they could get married or enter into a domestic partnership in their home state and, if so, how such a relationship might affect their other legal rights.  The app described available state law benefits, such as hospital visitation and inheritance rights, possible disadvantages, such as the requirement to register, and limits on any federal benefits available as a consequence of the Defense of Marriage Act.  After going through the interview, which usually took about three minutes, the user received a brief overall assessment statement.  The user could also view a customized full report that described the information the user had provided and set forth more specific detailed guidance based on this information … In designing an automated adviser that could help same-sex couples determine whether they could and might want to formalize their relationship, the students sought to build an app that served an important unmet need.”

That particular app may need updating after this summer’s SCOTUS ruling in Obergefell v. Hodges – but you get the idea.

Of course, as you’ve heard me say probably more than enough times, the LawHack project in our course does not have to involve creating an app, or using technology (although it certainly can).  But in other ways it has a lot in common with the Georgetown course and competition.  For example: devising effective and creative ways to meet important unmet needs.  Thinking through how end-users can interact with legal system to get the outcomes they need.  Giving users meaningful access to law by organizing and tapping into the “tacit knowledge” that lawyers use to advise clients and translating it into a more accessible, user-friendly, and cost-effective form.  (For more on what all this means, see the article.  It’s great.)  And, of course, the importance of both a good, effective design and excellent presentation (for extremely useful tips on that, don’t miss Adam LaFrance’s comment on the LawHack assignment description).

In case you need more inspiration, the ABA journal piece notes that Dustin Robinson, one of the students in the first Iron Tech Law competition in 2012, “immediately took a job in Chicago as a legal solutions architect with SeyfarthLean Consulting, a subsidiary of the Seyfarth Shaw law firm.”  (You may remember that Mitch Kowalski discussed Seyfarth Shaw and its consulting arm in his presentation yesterday.)  And in each of the past two years another student from the course has also gone to work there.

Law is changing, and some doors may be closing – but others are opening.

(1)Tanina Rostain, Roger Skalbeck & Kevin G. Mulcahy, “Thinking Like a Lawyer, Designing Like an Architect: Preparing Students for the 21st Century Practice” (2013), 88 Chi-Kent L Rev 743.